Joe Grundy

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Posts by Joe Grundy

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  19

  Debating a Christian at work.

  by pseudoxristos in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a christian at work has been after me for more than a year to go to his church and be saved.

  i like the guy and consider him a friend and have been politely trying to avoid the subject.

  i have recently decided that enough is enough and i told him i would discuss religion with him.

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  Joe Grundy

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhiABi6vw3A
  
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  19

  Debating a Christian at work.

  by pseudoxristos in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a christian at work has been after me for more than a year to go to his church and be saved.

  i like the guy and consider him a friend and have been politely trying to avoid the subject.

  i have recently decided that enough is enough and i told him i would discuss religion with him.

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  Joe Grundy

  To OP:

  I think you're right that you can't debate experiences.

  Most fundies IME hold to the following:

  Creation (see Cofty's excellent series of posts on this)

  OT foretelling the messiah (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5RfScpEcZ8 is an excellent watch re the veracity of the OT)

  Inerrancy of the NT - read/watch some of Bart Ehrman's work on this.

  ('This lass' Prof Dr Francesca Stavrakapoulou, is a well respected authority and has made some excellent programmes on the historicity of the bible, including for the BBC, which are worth watching.)
  
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  17

  How does the WTS explain away THIS scripture?

  by Searching in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm honestly in awe about this particular scripture (and honestly i can't keep thanking jwfacts enough for providing biblical contradictions to the jw doctrine!).

  "john said to him: "teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.

  " but jesus said: "do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us.

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  Joe Grundy

  This is from Bart Ehrman's (subscription) blog, which I highly recommend. I'm not sure if I'm alowed to share it, but I don't think he'd mind. It talks about the earliest diversity:

  The key point is that the differences affect not just the resurrection appearances. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Destro and Pesce have maps of Palestine for each of the Gospels where they shade in where Jesus does or says anything. And the four different maps are very different indeed. In the three maps that provide shading for what you find in Mark, in the “special sources of Matthew” (that is, the material that Matthew has acquired from sources other than Mark or Q), and in the “special sources of Luke” – the only place of any overlap is Jerusalem. Mark has activities of Jesus up in Tyre, Sidon, Caesarea Philippi – basically places north and northwest of the Sea of Galilee. Luke’s special material does not have these places, but instead has places on the southern coast of the Mediterranean heading east to Jerusalem; Matthew’s special source has some overlap with Mark, but mainly it’s all up in Galilee north, east, and NE of the sea of Galilee. John on the other hand has almost none of that, but instead has a areas in Samaria and Judea. And so on.

  Destro and Pesce use these data to make a very interesting argument. They think that Jesus, during his public life, was active in a number of areas of Galilee and Samaria and the Transjordan. In various places he would have acquired followers, who could not physically follow him around since, well, they did have to work for a living in order to eat. After his death, these groups of followers would have continued to adhere to his teachings – as they understood them. They would have told stories about him. Their views would have developed. And there is absolutely no reason to think that these various groups would have thought the same things about Jesus, remembered the same things about him, recalled the same teachings from him, or interpreted these teachings in the same way.

  In other words, immediately as soon as “Christianity” (however we define that) began after Jesus’ death, there would have been small groups of Jesus’ followers in different places with different views. And these different interest groups’ stories are the ones that eventually were brought together in the various Gospels.

  Destro and Pesce do not tie this into Bauer’s thesis about orthodoxy and heresy, but the connections are hard to miss. Diversity in the early Christian movement did not start with the Gnostics and Marcion in the middle of the second century. It was there from the beginning, as different followers of Jesus in different places had different understandings of what he said, what he did, and what he meant. These groups would have heard at different times that Jesus was raised from the dead. They would not have been connected with each other, unified with each other, seeing one another as all members of the same church. They were simply the followers of Jesus who may have known that there were other followers elsewhere (or not). We shouldn’t think of Christianity as starting out as ONE group of Jesus’ followers, who all swore allegiance to the disciples who set up the church in Jerusalem. It would have been scattered, disunified groups throughout Palestine. From the very beginning.
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  42

  Told My Parents Yesterday That I Don't Want to Be a JW

  by Saethydd in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i wasn't entirely sure what to expect when i made the decision to tell my parents how i really feel, but i was prepared for the worst, fortunately, it didn't come to that.

  after i told them i didn't want to go to the meetings anymore it led to a long talk with them.

  they made a number of irksome and woefully uninformed statements but at least they were not aggressive and have said that they won't force me to move out over this, though, i can tell they are hoping they can convince me to "accept the truth," as long as i still live with them.

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  Joe Grundy

  "Get a good King James Version and throw away the NWT."

  The KJV (AV) has much to commend it as literature of its time.

  You may find this interesting (skip the first ten minutes of intros):

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHevy5UhTdw
  
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  9

  BBC Radio 4 feature on child Abuse

  by Isambard Crater in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  on the radio this morning.

  here is the link:.

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08njt79.

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  Joe Grundy

  I highly recommend this - the JW bit is 26minute on.

  Kudos to BBC R4 - a very highly respected international news source - for publishing this.
  
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  28

  JW apologetics websites.

  by Steel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  lately i have been studying some basic christology and jesus in the old testament and why first christians believed jesus was god in the flesh.

  really interesting stuff.

  i am not really sure if i fully understand it but i do now realize why pastors go to university and bible school for a number of years and also how their beliefs are not just based on a few verses that can be edited in the nwt.

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  Joe Grundy

  Yes, and to put it into context, that was about 300 years -repeat 300 years - after the first beliefs were formed. At a time when there were no universal media, no printing, no, well whatever.

  Those interested in these things might find it interesting to look at a modern english language greek orthodox bible, which will generally include a lengthy introduction explaining the great schism about 1000 years ago.

  My personal view is that there never has been a united view of what 'christians' believe, it has always been subject to and open to interpretations. This is evident through the gospels - and they were written at the minimum 30 years after jesus' death.

  Again, this is about history, not theology.
  
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  28

  JW apologetics websites.

  by Steel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  lately i have been studying some basic christology and jesus in the old testament and why first christians believed jesus was god in the flesh.

  really interesting stuff.

  i am not really sure if i fully understand it but i do now realize why pastors go to university and bible school for a number of years and also how their beliefs are not just based on a few verses that can be edited in the nwt.

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  Joe Grundy

  OP: "why first Christians believed Jesus was god in the flesh."

  I think you'll find when you research this in depth - and IMO Ehrman is a good starting point - that there never was a consistent and common belief amongst the earliest followers. There were many competing views, and there's good reason to think that even during his lifetime followers in different geographical locations had different understandings and emphases regarding his teachings.

  The 'unanimity of beliefs' of the 'first christians' seems to me to be a myth, although so many groups claim to know it and follow it.

  This is to do with history, not theology.
  
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  9

  Catching up on the A.R.C.

  by The Searcher in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i haven't been here for several days, so apologies if similar comments have been posted regarding messrs spinks' & o'brien's "spiritual & scriptural" replies to the australian royal commission last week.. perhaps this line of questioning by mr. stewart could have helped exposed the org's corruption of the "two witness" rule:.

  mr stewart: mr. spinks, does the jehovah's witnesses' leadership base their "two witness" rule solely on the bible?.

  mr. spinks: yes.

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  Joe Grundy

  (I never was a JW).

  An excellent video, I thought, which highlights the dishonest evidence presented to ARC by Spinks and O'Toole (I hope/believe that the discrepancy will have been pointed out and understood by Mr Stewart and his team(.

  JW dot org can produce all the propaganda it likes, but to see these twats, and Jackson and the 'head JW lawyer' in action shows just how deficient they are in so many ways.
  
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  16

  At what point were you taught about disfellowshipping? What page in the current study book is it covered?

  by jambon1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  even thinking about born-ins here.

  at what stage of your 'bible teaching' were you taught about the practice of disfellowshipping?.

  reading john cedars book and the section about when the more crazy shit gets introduced to you is very telling.

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  Joe Grundy

  (I never was a JW).

  I think that the latest episode of the ARC taking evidence from Spinks and O'Brien (the leaders of WT in Australia) and the questions and reactions from Angus Stewart SC and HHJ Peter McClellan tell you all you need to know about the practice of shunning.

  IMHO it should be required viewing for anyone 'studying' or contemplating joining this cult.
  
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  99

  January 19, 2017 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN WALES Re: Prerecorded Memorial and Special Talk 2017 - Welsh

  by wifibandit in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  january 19, 2017 to all bodies of elders in wales re: prerecorded memorial and special talk 2017 - welsh.

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  Joe Grundy

  In a response to 'Richard Oliver' on another thread I started my remarks with 'with respect'. I withdraw that. He is, IMHO, talking uninformed apologist bollocks.

  You don't have to take my word for it (well, you do, of course - this is the internet!) but I discussed this with my daughter-in-law's parents. They live in the area and their first (and predominant - they tolerate me) language is Welsh. I showed them this property, explained its purported use and their laughter and expletives were multi-lingual.

  Now then, just to explain a little bit about the use of Welsh and English (bear with me, it;ll help me to make my later point). Wales is not (never has been) a united country. Many local rivalries persist, with accusations of 'you're not really Welsh, we are'. The Welsh spoken in north Wales can be quite different from that spoken in the south, and both can differ from that spoken in the west (where I live). There is, nowadays, an ;official' Welsh which can confuse everyody.

  My grand-daughters (7 & 5) attend a Welsh medium school (i.e. all lessons are taught in Welsh). They have homework reading books in both Welsh and English and use the languages interchangeably. At home they mostly speak Welsh with their Mum, with me we use English or they translate for me and we mix it about a bit (my Welsh is limited).

  There are very very few people in Wales now who don't have working English. There are still, of course, some Welsh language chapels - I have a good friend who is a minister of some - but it's a matter of preference and they're dying out.

  The Welsh language has become a bit of a political issue. All official documents, road signs, etc., are bilingual. There is official funding to promote Welsh.

  So I come to my point. The property that WT bought is, by any reasonable standard, a 'luxury' property, much over=specified for its purported use, especially in a university town where far more suitable and far cheaper properties were available. I also suspect that WT may be in receipt of government subsidies for 'promotion of the Welsh language'.

  Just to make it clear, I think RO is talking apolgetic bollocks,

  Hwyl fawr!